TikTok says it’s not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine — The company denied allegations that it has been promoting pro-Palestine content in an effort to sway American opinion::In a blog post, the company denied allegations that it has been promoting pro-Palestine content in an effort to sway American opinion.

  • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    If you aren’t anti-oppression or anti-apartheid you aren’t progressive

    • Enkrod@feddit.de
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      Yeah well, one can be anti-oppression and anti-apartheid as well as anti-terror, anti-killing-civilians, anti-bombing-hospitals, anti-using-civilians-as-shields, anti-hostage-taking and anti-warcrimes.

      The israeli Government is not the only one with blood on their hands and while nothing can excuse what the IDF is doing, nothing can excuse what HAMAS is doing too.

      Both sides fucking suck, the only difference I can see is that HAMAS is bad for Israelis and Palestinians moreso than the Israeli Government is also bad for Israelis.

      • piexil@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        You literally listed off everything Israel is doing. Good job.

        Israel’s killed over 11k civilians since Oct 7th.

        Israel’s bombed over 20 hospitals.

        Israel refused to take their hostages back even when Hamas offered them in exchange for the Palestinians hostages Israel has. Then bombed the locations they know hostages were at.

        • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          Hamas is using hospitals as staging grounds to fire rockets at Israel, over 9,500 rockets so far since Oct 7th.

          The hostage exchange was for a ceasefire that Hamas wanted so they could regroup and start attacking Israel from stronger positions. And they only offered 15 of the 200+ hostages. It was fucking bullshit, and Israel was right to reject it.

            • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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              1 year ago

              We know Hamas fighters have been using the hospitals to stage rocket attacks, and fire out of. Whether there is an actual base of operations hidden in them is beyond the point, Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to fire at Israel from. They have said as much, they fight from among civilians to get Israel to kill civilians so Israel looks bad to the world. It’s how Hamas operates.

                • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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                  1 year ago

                  There was an article on the active page of Lemmy yesterday with confirmation of Hamas fighting from a major hospital.

                  • Glytch@ttrpg.network
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                    1 year ago

                    So it should be easy for you to link it. That is, if it does prove your point and exists in the first place. Because right now your source is “trust me bro”.

                  • balp@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Because of the geneva conventions about protections civilians.

                • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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                  1 year ago

                  There is video of weapons fire coming from hospitals, so we do have that.

                  And Hamas is constantly lying too, yet everyone on this site seems to eat up everything they say.

                  • Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works
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                    1 year ago

                    Hamas has not lied as blatantly as Israel. The death tolls they have reported have typically been corroborated by later independent sources.

                    What does weapons fire actually imply in a territory subjected to constant bombing and siege warfare? It’s not like hospitals are safe from bombings and other attacks, so being armed in a gaza hospital is simply the intelligent thing to do

        • John Richard@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Netanyahu be like… “Hmm, they are going to attack but if I stop them I may still go to jail, but if I don’t then I get more power… Let me have the Kushners put me in touch with Donny to see what he’d do.”

        • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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          Israel’s killed over 11k civilians since Oct 7th.

          Bullshit statistic until it is verified by independent sources. Currently, the only source for that number is Hamas and they have a great reason for exaggerating it.

        • yagurlreese@lemmy.world
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          yea exactly I’m sick of all this whataboutism about Hamas. Hamas is the sole response to the atrocities that the idf has started. they hold all the power in this situation, they have killed many many many more people then Hamas ever could. They have also committed and are committing insane like Nazi level war crimes and all we get is… okay but Hamas bad.

          also lets not forget… most Palestinians didn’t even want Hamas. they havent had an actiall election in almost two decades. Because it’s literally not safe enough because the idf keeps bombing them.

          stop all the back and forth finger pointing, America could pull funding from isreal, instead of this E fleas posturing. If isreal wanted peace then we could hve peace but there will never be peace until the idf stops bombing refugee camps and hospitals lol.

          so sick of all this whataboutism, obviously any killing is wrong but Hamas is just a glorified token a red herring being used to justify brutality on a Holocaust level scale. and we need to stop allowing it.

          • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            they have killed many many many more people then Hamas ever could

            Not for lack of trying. If it weren’t for the billions of dollars spent on the Iron Dome every year, and the Israeli intelligence apparatus allowing them to evacuate their cities before attacks, many more Israelis would be dead. Attempted murder by Hamas is still atrocious.

            most Palestinians didn’t even want Hamas

            Hamas still had broad support as of 2020, so no most Palestinians do want Hamas.

            stops bombing refugee camps and hospitals

            Tell Hamas to stop using them as bases of operation and firing rockets at Israel from those locations then. Hamas wants dead Palestinian civilians, that’s their goal in the war to make Israel look bad.

            • lad@programming.dev
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              1 year ago

              Hamas wants dead Palestinian civilians, that’s their goal in the war to make Israel look bad.

              It pains me to admit but that works and I think Israel does look bad because of this. Also when you have people indoctrinated to the level that they will gladly act as a shield to become martyres it is hard to fight clean :( I haven’t thought about this possibility before

      • prole@sh.itjust.works
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        That’s the only difference you see? Not the extreme disproportionality of the bloodshed? Not the comparisons between civilian casualties on each side?

        • John Richard@lemmy.world
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          Hamas is like the cave-dwelling dwarf people that America made up for the middle-east to justify killing over a hundred-thousand civilians. Seriously, are we to believe that Gaza has a bunch of Gringotts vaults underneath it?

          Seriously, it is clear that the bombing is not about saving hostages nor destroying Hamas. Would it surprise anyone if they found out that Israel’s far-right government is like the ex that attacks you and then punches themselves and screams like a Karen that you attacked them first… and then when asked for evidence because their wounds look self-induced, they yell… you don’t believe me you antisemitic Nazi!?!

      • UnspecificGravity@lemmings.world
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        1 year ago

        Yeah well, one can be anti-oppression and anti-apartheid as well as anti-terror, anti-killing-civilians, anti-bombing-hospitals, anti-using-civilians-as-shields, anti-hostage-taking and anti-warcrimes.

        Sure, and if you are those things its going to be hard to get enthusiastic about voting for Biden.

      • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Oh no! Not a German overcompensating for their countries role in the holocaust.

        Both sides fucking suck, the only difference I can see is that HAMAS is bad for Israelis and Palestinians moreso than the Israeli Government is for Israelis.

        • Israel has effectively removed freedom of speech in Israel and are incarcerating thousands of dissenting Israelis (believe it or not this is bad for Israelis)
        • Israel has policies for killing soldiers and civilians if they are going to be taken hostage (dying is generally seen as bad for everyone)
        • Israeli helicopters indiscriminately shooting at the festival are responsible for most of the deaths at the festival on the 7th (pretty bad for Israelis)
        • Israel has killed more Israeli hostages than Hamas and has tried to refuse accepting the return of hostages (I’d be more scared of Israel than hamas if I was a hostage right now)
        • Israel has a 99% civilian kill ratio when targeting hamas in this latest operation (IOF just being a shit army, bad for Israelis to be linked to this)

        If you want to dismantle Hamas for the the operation on the 7th, by the same logic we should dismantle Israel 10x for all their operations since 2003 such as operation lead.

    • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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      If you aren’t anti-religious-fascism you aren’t a civilized person. But it seems that more and more “progressives” are falling in that category.

        • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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          And that’s why we need to let the fascist religious ethnostate commit genocide

          No, you’re confused. I’m against Hamas committing a genocide.

      • John Richard@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Do you really consider them progressives though and not just violent anarchist? Progressive to me means forward-thinking. If you think it is a good idea for future generations to destroy civilization and attack people then you’re not a progressive to me.

        • Phanlix@lemmy.world
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          Violent anarchists are Libertarians, whom literally state their mission is to remove all government limitations at all costs.

          How Libertarians avoid the anarchist label is beyond me. They’re like weird corporate anarchists, compared to the actual anarchy movement.

          Progressives are people who value the freedom of religion for all people, the freedom to be who you truly are, even if that’s the opposite gender you were born as, and the advancement of human rights on topics concerning body autonomy and well anything humans rights related. We also tend to firmly believe in addressing income inequality, poverty, availability of medical benefits to everyone as a human right, and an end to monopolies and corporate malfeasance.

          I think a lot of conservatives try to paint Progressives as anarchists because we riot. But they ignore the literal mission statements of the right wing which is that smaller government is better and that people should run their lives completely freely. THAT is anarchy my friend. And what that gets us is a dying planet full of pollution with infinitely rising cost of living and slavery to corporations, and we’re dangerously close to that now. You’d better hope like hell Progressives win this fight, because everything you enjoy, everything that’s good in your life, is a result of Progressive policy. Or are you actually going to sit here and argue policies like Reaganomics are a good thing despite almost 60 years of data to the contrary?

          • theultimaterage@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Honestly, humanity needs to get over religion as a whole. Freedom of religion ultimately leads to religious extremists attempting to force their baseless beliefs on everyone else, which is the exact scenario we find ourselves in today. That’s why instead of focusing on religious freedom, we should focus our efforts more on STEM.

            NOT ONE SINGLE RELIGION holds up against even the Socratic Method. Theism is unfalsifiable and overall useless to society. Now that we have STEM, we have methodologies to help us grow our understanding of the ACTUAL nature of reality, and not some sci-fi fantasy gobbledygook!

    • FaeDrifter@midwest.social
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      Sure, but who is the “oppressor” and who is the “oppressed” can flip on a dime based on context.

      A lot of oppressed people eventually find themselves to be the oppressor.

      If you take a hard stance joining any side, you are at some point siding with an oppressor.

      I don’t need to describe how horrific and oppressive Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was. But you take a hard stance siding with the Jewish people, you are siding with the oppressor in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

      I don’t need to describe how horrific the situation in Gaza is, but if you take a hard stance siding with Palestine and Hamas executes a bunch of festival goers, you’re siding with the oppressor.

      The only way to be anti-opression (and according to you, a real progressive), is to not take sides but take every situation as it is and support the best possible outcome for everyone.

      • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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        Israel doesn’t represent every Jew that ever lived around the world.

        Yes I support the Warsaw uprising.

        Yes I support the dismantlement of apartheid states.

        These are not conflicting stances.

        If the oppressed become an oppressor my stance can change on them. Not taking the side of the oppressed while they are being oppressed is cowardly and indirectly supports the status quo/the oppressor.

        • steltek@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          I must have missed history class where the Warsaw Uprising attacked a peace festival.

          Being oppressed is not a license to become a monster yourself. I refuse to condone cold blooded revenge (both Hamas and IDF).

          • Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de
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            1 year ago

            That the festival was for peace in Gaza is an onboarding lie spread by the IDF. The festival was simply in celebration of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. The motto was “friends, love and infinite freedom”, so just about a regular rave.

            Sadly mandatory: This doesn’t make it okay to slaughter and abduct the attendees.

          • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            Alright what about warcrimes committed by resistance fighters and the allied forced during ww2?

            If you support those groups even though they have done bad shit then you’re a hypocrite and you should try and understand why you consider them differently.

            • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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              1 year ago

              Hamas wants to get Palestinian’s killed by Israel, that’s their goal. They want their own people to die so Israel looks bad and maybe Hamas can get Saudi Arabia to attack.

              That’s worse than what the allies did.

              • GnuLinuxDude@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                At this point i support hamas uncritically because israel is an apartheid state and its stepdad, the USA, is the largest state sponsor of terror in the world.

                • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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                  So you support a terrorist organization attempting to eradicate all Jews, and getting their own people willingly killed in the process. Good to know.

                  • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    So you support a terrorist state attempting to eradicate safe spaces for Jews outside of Israel by funding antisemitic groups in those countries, and getting Jews killed in the process. Good to know.

                  • GnuLinuxDude@lemmy.ml
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                    i don’t care about the opinion of genocidal freaks such as yourself who sanction ethnic cleansing campaigns. everything you say is wrong and irrelevant

              • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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                Hamas wants hostages to do a hostage swap for Palestinians that Israel is holding hostage in their prisons.

                This is true of any organisation fighting a nation state.

                The IRA did hostage swaps with the British government and this was one of the reasons there is peace in northern Ireland.

                https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/18/prisoner-swaps-cornerstone-northern-ireland

                Edit: looking at tavarins comment history it is most likely they are a Zionist mouthpiece. Hope they are getting paid and not doing unpaid labour ❤

                • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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                  1 year ago

                  Just anti terrorist.

                  And Hamas demanded a 4 day caesefire as part of the hostage swaps, and only offered a small number of hostages.

                  And I have Israeli friends who had to live under Hamas rocket fire.

                  • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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                    So your issue is that Israel couldn’t negotiate better or at all?

                    And I have Palestinian friends that have lost tens of family members.

            • steltek@lemm.ee
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              You’re demanding to view this as “good team” / “bad team”. Fix that first because it stops any hope for peace.

              • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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                Did looking at Nazis as the bad guys stop peace?

                But no I’m asking if you support critically or uncritically the allies in ww2.

                If you support the allies even though they committed war crimes and you don’t at least uncritically support an oppressed peoples struggle then you are at best a hypocrite and at worst a racist.

        • FaeDrifter@midwest.social
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          1 year ago

          Interesting, so do you support the oppression of women in the US, or are you against the oppression of women?

      • Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works
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        Whatever Palestine does to free themselves from oppression is justified. Israel has never been oppressed by Palestine.

          • Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            If the Jews had had a group similar to Hamas during the Holocaust, any rational person would say that’s a good thing, as it might have lessened the horrors the Nazis could put them through. So yes, if the victims of a genocide retaliate against the perpetrators of it, that is good. Learn critical thinking skills please.

            • FaeDrifter@midwest.social
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              Critical thinking - would a little Jewish strike group attacking German civilians make the Nazi party hold back and lessen the horrors, or would it have scared the Germans into further supporting the Nazi party and lead to an even more outright assault on Jewish people, making the horrors even worse?

              It would have made it worse. Without a doubt, the Holocaust would have been even worse.

              You need to be honest with yourself, is this about protecting human life, or do you just fetishize violence against people you hate?

              • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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                Hate to break it to you but violence has been the solution in every successful civil rights movement.

                All your rights we’re violently fought for and defended at some point in history.

                Saying killing Nazis would have made the holocaust worse has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve read. How could it be any worse!?

                • FaeDrifter@midwest.social
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                  Many German civilians actually sympathized with the Jews and helped them hide/escape.

                  Now imagine they hadn’t.

                  It could absolutely have been worse.

                  All your rights we’re violently fought for and defended at some point in history.

                  At some point it was violent, and at some point the violence ended.

                  You don’t want the violence to end, you want an excuse to indulge in your fetish for violence and feel like you’re morally right for it.

                  • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    Germans sympathetic to the Jewish plight would’ve helped their neighbours and friends no matter what Jewish resistance was doing.

                    Do I have a fetish for violence or do I just believe that oppressed people should be able to fight for their rights like those before us did.

                    Are you are happy to have your rights and pull the ladder up behind you?

                    If you don’t allow those who’s rights are being trampled on in the most horrendous ways to fight back you condemn them.

          • Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works
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            I have skin in the game, because if America aids in a genocide, I as an American am partially responsible. I’m okay with being arrested, or even a second coup attempt by trump, if it means preventing a genocide.

      • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Ah yes the choice between democracy (fascism lite) and fascism.

        It’d be nice if Americans finally overthrew their system or just voted for other parties/independents.

        Also not everyone here is from the US btw.

        • FaeDrifter@midwest.social
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          Democracy is demonstrably far less oppressive than fascism.

          If you are actually anti-opression, the choice for Democracy is a no-brainer.

          • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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            My point is that the incumbent party and the opposition are both anti democracy and authoritarian compared to the rest of the world.

            Look at the police brutality against peaceful activists in the capitol last night and tell me if that was China that wouldn’t be used by the American media to tell Americans how authoritarian China is.

            This is happening under the democrats, the alleged protectors of democracy. Last time I checked freedom of speech was a democratic ideal in America and the right to protest was a human right.

            • FaeDrifter@midwest.social
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              You’re running in nonsensical circles my dude. First you say “Democracy” is “fascism-lite”, now you’re saying that to be “anti-Democracy” is “authoritarian”.

              Did you slip up and accidentally reveal to the wrong community that you’re anti-Democracy, or did you poorly communicate your original intent and write out the wrong statement?

              • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                The ultimatum posed to me was democracy vs god emperor, in this context it is clearly putting democrats as the democratic option and republicans as the theocratic authoritarian option.

                Me saying in response:

                democracy (fascism lite) vs fascism

                Is not me saying democracy is fascism, its me saying the two options both look like fascism from outside the US.

                • FaeDrifter@midwest.social
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                  Ahhh that makes a lot of sense now.

                  I want to make my position on this part clear:** there’s no defending the DNC for supporting a genocidal apartheid state.**

                  But like it or not, the DNC is demonstrably far better on LGBT rights, women’s rights, minority rights, and voting rights in the US. They could look similar to you, but with the DNC there is actually a path forward to be better.

                  And also like it or not, Trump will do nothing good for Palestine. Trump fucking hates brown people, he hates Muslims, the situation will get worse for everyone in the middle east and for women and minorities in the US. And long-term, if you all think America is racist and imperialist now, when cristo-fascists take over and really turn America into a white Christian empire that launches a religious crusade against the rest of the world, y’all will realize how good you had it when it was just the neolibs being greedy for money.

          • SeducingCamel@lemm.ee
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            Good thing our democracy in the US is exceedingly healthy and citizens vote directly and not through sellout politicians. Oh wait

            • FaeDrifter@midwest.social
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              It’s just not a Democracy, unfortunately.

              Bad faith actors weaponizes this against the concept of Democracy itself.

              • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                The current problems in the middle east are mainly due to western powers. Whether that is the British or French drawing random lines on a map over 100 years or america destabilising resource rich countries.

                Things that make it look like the US is the bad guy once again:

                • the US and Israel funded Hamas to take power away from the more secular left PLO (not the first time funding religious extremists)
                • the US tried to stage a coup after Hamas took power in a democratic election
                • Gaza has oil and gas deposits that Israel is selling contracts for
                • Israel has released plans to build a bigger competitor to the Suez canal that would benefit the US as they would profit from international trade and not Egypt who isn’t aligned with US interests (read Muslim country)
                • going through Gaza would make this proposed canal straighter therefore cheaper to build and faster to navigate
                • US arms companies benefit anytime a country is buying stockpiled armaments

                Unironically we wouldn’t be in this situation if the US and israel weren’t dicks about everything.

    • 🐱TheCat@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      Ah yes, the nuanced thinking of a 5 year old - everything is black and white and everyone who doesn’t agree w me 100% is evil

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        1 year ago

        Do you know what genocide is? It’s pretty much the most black and white issue there could possibly be. People who disagree with me on this ARE evil. There is actually such a thing as truth.

        • Ferrous@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 year ago

          If it’s so black and white, then why are there numerous international councils, courts, and meetings where accusations of genocide are fiercely debated?

          • Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Because Israel is good at propaganda, and the most powerful country ever supports them. It’s not remotely debatable though, the American hegemony just wants it to be.

      • spiderplant@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        I mean if you think apartheid south Africa, Jim crow laws and indiscriminate killing of second class citizens by the police or army are issues deserving of nuanced debate you need to take a look at yourself.