The world’s largest demonstration plant for a new kind of renewable energy storage is up and running in the west of the China. Called liquid-air energy storage (LAES) the plant uses renewable electricity to compress air to extreme densities until it turns to liquid. It can then be rapidly released to power a turbine and discharge that green energy back into the grid.

  • Kazumara@discuss.tchncs.de
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    9 hours ago

    Terrible article.

    • It claims the facility is rated at 600 MWh, and then later claims it’s rated at 400 MWh of energy storage.
    • It does not say how much power it has.
    • It does not say anything about the efficiency of this storage.
    • When it does the roughest cost comparison to Lithium battery storage they say it costs at least 33 cents on the dollar. What’s that supposed to mean, it could also cost 50 cents on the dollar or 80 cents on the dollar, but at least 33 cents on the dollar? Who needs a lower floor on the cost?
    • A7thStone@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      400MWh is the size of the one being planned in Vermont, which would have been the largest commercial system if the states had actually built it. If you follow the link in the article to the story about that one it gives a range of cost per Wh comparing this to hydro storage and lithium ion.

    • Kazumara@discuss.tchncs.de
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      9 hours ago

      This source says that efficiency wasn’t published, but at least it discusses some typical values
      https://climatesolutions.news/spotlight/china-liquid-air-energy-storage-golmud

      However, the developer hasn’t published a round-trip efficiency figure for Golmud. Industry estimates put liquid air energy storage at 50% to 60% on average, rising to 60% to 70% with advanced heat recovery. Lithium-ion batteries typically return well over 80% of the power they take in.

      • A_A@lemmy.world
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        18 minutes ago

        Thanks for this article that is much better than the original one from the post … although it is still limited in regards to the (obvious) separation of gases when in liquid phases. Yet, it does hint at that separation by saying :

        An air purification system removes moisture, carbon dioxide and other impurities to support reliable operation of the cryogenic process.

        We see why they keep their industrial secrets simply reading what they disclose as their source (from China) :

        Source: Project information published by the Golmud Municipal Government.

  • bryndos@fedia.io
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    6 hours ago

    Basically liquid nitrogen? I guess its a question of how much energy you have to put in to get it to expand rapidly enough. Presumably just exposing it to atmospheric conditions will be quite a slow expansion.

    But maybe , at scale, that’s enough to get astable flow into a turbine.

    It doesn’t sound quite as convenient as pumped hydro (in terms of controllability) but if you don’t need a lake at top of mountain, then that’s cool.

  • Jiral@lemmy.world
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    6 hours ago

    If you go to pressured tanks, wouldn’t hydrogen via electrolysis/fuel cells be a more capable and efficient storage option? What’s the energy density compared?

    • sumsinj@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      Idk about the cryogenic/liquified part of it but h2(g) is really corrosive and notorious bad for all kinds of storages because of that. Also imo h2 isn’t the best storage because it is too valuable in industry processes, a good way to get rid of excess energy but not to feed energy back into the system.

      The other part being the energy put into the electrolysis, yes h2 has more energy, but a whole extra process + buffer storage and turbines and compressors that are h2-able.

      N2 is inert

      • Jiral@lemmy.world
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        3 hours ago

        Fair points, except for the value of H2, it really does not matter that much in a process that both produces and consumes it. The most efficient storage system, at least for anything that is more than just very short term is still pumping water up and let it flow down. It can also store immense amounts of energy given one has the geography to build such system. Which is also the main limitation. I guess we are looking for the second best storage system here.

        I doubt that for day cycle compensation anything can beat battery systems. But the issue is seasonal storage.

        • sumsinj@lemmy.world
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          2 hours ago

          H2 is used for many other products (steel reduction, ammonia), right now its produced from methane. If we were to replace methane with a green source (aka when green storage systems would also be a big part of the ecosystem) then we’d need to replace it or the price for anything would explode, because we can’t produce anything without steel nor ammonia.

          So its not really of much value right now, but if we want to make everything CO2 neutral, then hydrogen will be expensive. So noone will just produce it and not sell it. At least that is my prediction.

  • thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe
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    10 hours ago

    This would be perfect for North Africa and Australia where there is excellent solar capability but limited water and high ambient temps (not great for batteries)

  • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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    12 hours ago

    not the best article, but this shit is awesome! 600mwh is a demo project in China.

    This matches battery deployment costs in china if the compressor is half power. It is cheaper with more storage. Batteries don’t scale much lower in cost with more of them. So, if you need want an extra 600mwh+ of storage that can charge slower than batteries (but at the same time) then this is perfect.

    Solar in southern Canada needs H2 electrolysis in summer to provide baseload in winter. Lots of storage needed to run baseload+electrolysis 24/7 in summer, and winter resilience. This tech is only 50% efficient, but current market for pure H2 is minimal, and Ammonia production is both its main use, and a massively larger market. Also, ammonia is massively larger volumetric energy density, and easy to store. A giant solar farm in Canada can pair with electric haber bosch plant to produce ammonia from green H2, and LAES can provide pure N2. (Pure O2 is also separated by liquifaction). Haber Bosch plant can also provide even higher waste heat than its 200C pressured water extraction, boosting LAES efficiency.

    This is also an energy storage abundance path with different skillset than batteries…

    • sumsinj@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      Is ammonia a larger market because they produce their own grey H2 in the process of making ammonia?

      • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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        3 hours ago

        because they produce their own grey H2 in the process of making ammonia? yes.
        By market, I mean most H2 is sold under contract next door to an ammonia plant instead of “marketed”. Ammonia has direct farming application use, as well as input to solid fertilizer. It’s also the most practical green energy trade/longer term storage molecule.

        • sumsinj@lemmy.world
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          2 hours ago

          This needs a huge amount of energy surplus to provide enough in the summer and using ammonia for heat/energy is in direct contrast to using it using it for the market isn’t it? Except when you’d only use the expansion of liquid to gaseous and then use gaseous ammonia in a nearby plant. My guess would be anything green H2 will be too high demand and expensive to use as a fuel

          • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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            24 minutes ago

            This needs a huge amount of energy surplus to provide enough in the summer

            Yes, but you need huge summer surplus solar to provide baseload in winter too. Ammonia in great lakes/mid west region market price is very profitable from solar production in the area.

            using ammonia for heat/energy is in direct contrast to using it using it for the market isn’t it?

            It’s more about making unlimited ammonia and still having a use for it for someone in the world in some season.

            My guess would be anything green H2 will be too high demand and expensive to use as a fuel

            Solar based baseload pricing can work at 2c/kwh daytime summer, and 15-20c/kwh daytime winter. Where legacy plants are kept around for 2 months of the year. But Ammonia is competitive to make/store for the winter and deliver power at around that cost, especially through home/V2H fuel cells, but also at higher backup power pricing. You need ammonia winter reserve for spring sales anyway.

    • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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      8 hours ago

      Still spinning a turbine, but not steam. Almost all power is spinning a turbine, from hydro, to coal, nuclear, and this apparently. It isn’t always steam though. Thermal power usually is, but others are spinning it with something else.

    • Cricket [he/him]@lemmy.zip
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      20 hours ago

      In a way I would say it’s pretty different, right? At room temperature, water needs a lot of energy to turn and keep turning into steam, while at first glance it would seem that air could be kept liquid at room temperature (of course after using energy to compress it) without using (much?) energy, then release that energy in a useful form when you need it.

  • we is doomed!@lemmy.world
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    18 hours ago

    this is an old idea through, decades ago when i subscribed to Scientific American a front cover atory was about an idea was to use abandoned underground mines for massive compressed air storage that could be released to spin a turbines when needed. i e a battery

    good to see the Chinese having a go though

      • unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de
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        15 hours ago

        How so? Its higher pressure, but still just compressed air storage. They use the energy released during decompression to generate electricity.

        • Obviouslywrong@lemmy.world
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          9 hours ago

          Is not compressed, when it becomes liquid it can be unpressurized and just needs thermal insulation to stay cold. That’s how gas works. Not about pressure at all. You can pump the liquid or let it drain into an unpressurized thermos.

          • unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de
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            6 hours ago

            You are right, i didnt read that far. It should be possible to turn and keep it liquid just through pressure at room temperature but i guess that wouldnt be practical.

    • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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      12 hours ago

      This implementation is first sensible path from battery systems price drops.

      • pine@piefed.world
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        16 hours ago

        They ‘won’ a long time ago, you just are now seeing them starting to get ahead.

        • bryndos@fedia.io
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          6 hours ago

          I don’t know where the idea that there is a winner and a loser for everything came from? Probably the same dicks that invented patent trolling. Anyone can do anything if they put their minds and resources to it, and doing a good thing after someone else is not a loss.

          China is just getting on with doing their thing, slightly more responsibly and sustainably than most who developed before. Usa and other 'wannabe usa’s (like where i live) seem to be content doing their things less responsibly and less sustainably.

          It’s not China ‘winning’ in this scenario, they’re trying not to lose too much, or, to postpone losses, but are likely to have significant losses forced on them nonetheless.

          I think it’s more of a “dickheads wantonly shitting on the fan scenario” than a “winner takes all”.

        • CosmoNova@lemmy.world
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          5 hours ago

          Won what? Unemployment is rampant, their real estate is in a state of crisis the west has never experienced and it looks like they‘re preparing for war as well. And with everything we‘ve learned about Russia‘s invasion of Ukraine that likely won‘t go in China‘s favor either.

          This article on the other hand is just the weekly „China is decades ahead!“ fluff piece that will likely be forgotten this time next week after actual scientists had a look at it and found some plot holes in the story. Be it about the revolutionary nature of it or physical properties.

  • dindonmasker@sh.itjust.works
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    19 hours ago

    Compressed air sounds like a good long term energy storage option since the losses over time must be pretty low.

    • artifex@piefed.zip
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      18 hours ago

      There are a couple kinds of CAES. The best ones (“advanced” methods like adiabatic and isothermal) can have 70-80% roundtrip which is pretty good – and much better than the 40-60% that “conventional” CAES is good for. Like many other things it could definitely have its place in a heterogeneous mix.

      table of comparative efficiency of multiple kinds of energy storage. Li-ion is the best from a pure efficiency standpoint, at about 90%, with  advanced CAES behind at around 75%)

  • A_A@lemmy.world
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    18 hours ago

    … is up and running in the west of the China.

    No. “in Chinas’ west ?” or " … ?" idk.

    When electricity is plentiful, it powers machinery that draws in air, compresses it and cools it to extremely low temperatures of around -190°C. At this point, the air becomes a liquid, taking up far less space than it did as a gas.

    No. Liquid fractions of gases from air readily separates. So O2(l), N2(l), Ar(g), and many other, each being much more valuable alone. Helium for example is very expensive.

    (So, economically speaking, only the nitrogen should be expanded back to retrieve stored energy.)

    in my opinion, this article could have been much better even if written by artificial intelligence.