While they were happy with what the fairphone 4 brought to the table, they seem to like what was changed for the fairphone 5.
What are you guys’ opinions on this? A welcome change? would you get one if your phone died within the next year?
Too bad they don’t sell them in the US. I would buy one immediately.
they’re selling the 4 with degoogled OS in the US, so perhaps they’ll do the same with the 5 at some point.
Amazing.
I’m sick of buying a new phone every three years because the battery is dead or the processor is slow, nothing can be replaced without it being wildly expensive and now it’s a paperweight.
To be fair, I don’t think the Fairphone will help much with outdated processors. You can’t upgrade the processor inside, and it comes with a relatively slow processor from day one.
This phone is not for people that need performance; it’s a very basic phone for people that value an ethical supply chain and repairability.
Relative slow my arse imo.Its all about use cases and the (potential shitty) apps you run. Been using the fp4 just perfectly fine for months, and before that the one plus x on android 11 just fine.
I would like to know what apps you use that would need the speed of anything besides the “best”?
( and for anyone wondering, one of the reasons you cant switch processor is because of the imei thats burned in. Changing that basically means that the whole id of the phone changes, including links to your mobile provider. It isnt allowed in some places )
Games
Like…?
Lately I’ve been playing Need For Speed Underground 2 on the AetherSX2 emulator. A Fairphone absolutely cannot do that.
Look bud, I’m not trying to attack Fairphone, you don’t need to be defensive. I’m just setting expectations that this is not a phone for people that need a high performance processor. The chipset is low-end, objectively. I’m sure it’s fine for people who don’t care about that stuff.
Seriously. What mobile games are worth time or money? Aren’t they all just pay to win now?
If that’s the sum total of your reasons for needing a more expensive, less free, less repairable phone, then I have nothing left except to laugh at you.
No, I just don’t have the time to explain the hundred obvious ways that a fast processor might benefit somebody, so I chose a single, INCREDIBLY obvious item near the top of the list for most people, and was hoping that I wouldn’t get follow-up idiotic responses like this. But alas!
Great news, really hope the 5 is next.
That and supporting grapheneos would do it for me
The Fairphone 4 supports /e/.
It seems graphene is limiting itself to Pixel devices. The developer is also mostly a one man show, so I don’t think he has the capacity to support many devices. He’s probably just busy keeping up with Pixel devices as-is.
What I would like to know is, how do /e/ and GrapheneOS compare.
Can’t really find info on that.
Calyx Os supports the FP4 and announced support for the FP5
That just to be said.
I have e os on FP4 and I would describe my experience as follows: Do you want to switch from IOS to Android without loosing the style of the launcher and gain some privacy? Go for it
If you want an Android that does a lot for you and give you tools like a vpn, a tracker blocker ect… Go for it
If you want to customize your experience (e.g. have an “normal” Android launcher, switch accent colors …) ? You get a very rocky experience to say the best.
And at least for the FP4, some stock apps like the Cam were just not working, but to be fair it seemed like that was a suppychain problem…
I consider changing to calyx Os, expecting to get a more customizable Android.
Is e os able to use all the camera lenses? That’s one problem I have with custom roms, they’re often unable to hook into the camera API in order to use anything other than the main back and front camera
Had to check real quick: Yes in the current Version of the stock cam it does recognise all cameras and even takes snappy pictures. That was the problem before but it seems to be patched.
Anyways due to this problem i switched to gcam
Such a shame that this kind of issue is a thing in the first place. I’d love to use a Fairphone and slap DivestOS on it, but potentially losing two lenses I paid for isn’t great at all
I think that should work, due to DivestOS being a fork of LinageOS just like eOS, and in fact the camera of eOS is just the cam of LinageOS (thats what i meant with supplychain problem). So i assume that DivestOS might just have the same camera app as eOS
But you could probably confirm that by looking into the repos
They limit themselves to Pixel devices because they have by far and away the best hardware security. Same reason for Calyx.
It’s mostly definitely not a one man operation and the guy you’re likely referring to has left the project.
Thanks, today I learned.
How do Calyx and Graphene compare?
I see Calyx does support Fairphone.
I would like that as well. In fact I’d like to switch to Calyx, but from eOS.
Check out iode.tech as well. Like /e/OS, also a lineage OS variant but with build in firewall which you can customize (or turn off). Fast security updates and great default informed FOSS apps (unlike /e/OS).
That’s more up to the grapheneOS devs
True, but part of the reason they don’t go for it is hardware things that are missing
For me, the problem was that they don’t support the right bands for US carriers.
I’m able to use Mint Mobile here in the States on my Fairphone 4. I believe 5 would also be compatible.
I appreciate you mentioning that, thats how I’m considering using the 5 if it ends up as my phone replacement, but I have a hard time interpreting the info around wireless frequency bandwidths supported 🙃 I like pretty user interfaces, networking hurts my brain
The FP4 (sold by Murena in the US) has a decent spread of bands, and works pretty well. Feel free to PM me if you want more detail.
That’s not fair
I generally try to check every few years to see if they sell to the US yet. Last I checked they would finally ship FP4 to the US, but it will only work on T-Mobile :/ gonna check back in a few more years.
Well if you’re on ATT or any of it’s mvno’s good luck ever using any devices that isn’t on their approved list. I can’t even use my carrier unlocked Oneplus 7T. Really the only choice for device freedom in the “land of the free” is T-Mobile.
I’ve being following Fairphone since 2013, waiting for them to sell to Taiwan. After a years of waiting, in 2019 I just said fk it and bought one from official store, ship it with international packaging forwarding service. Couldn’t be happier with my Fairphone ever since.
I really wish another viable mobile OS would come out. I don’t want android and apple iOS is wearing thin on me.
Have you tried Ubuntu Touch?
Perhaps next year will be the year of the Linux Phone. Alas, the same problems that plague the Linux desktop plague the phone. Lack of software.
It’s also very difficult to move out of the Apple ecosystem once everything just works the way you think it should. 
I’m quite interested in the developments on waydroid that would allow the use of Android apps on a Linux phone.
Now that’s an interesting concept.
Linux desktop is far more mature and there isn’t even a year for the Linux desktop yet. Linux mobile will probably never take off within our lifetime lmao.
Agreed. I don’t have a home computer. All of my online experience is done through my iPhone. I can’t be messing around with phones I constantly need to tweak or troubleshoot. I’ve done it to myself, but I’m okay with where I’m at rn.
Oh yes please stick with Apple. I don’t think I have ever heard of a better use case scenario.
I can’t tell if you’re being facetious or not.
Seems like an honest recommendation to me. You fit the apple use case pretty well, so if it works for you, great. I’d argue a stock pixel using stock android would be comparable in terms of not needing to mess with stuff since its a very curated experience, since google then controls the hardware and software, like apple.
The trade off is you’re giving google (or apple) 100% access and control to everything you do on your phone.
With a fairphone or any other android with (e, grapheneOS, calyxOS, lineage, etc) you WILL need to change some settings, maybe play around with it a bit to get it working how you want, but you are the one in control. Its really not that difficult to develop the small amount of technological knowledge needed given the amount of help available online and I’d say its a necessary life skill these days just like learning to use a computer became a necessary life skill.
I tried it on a spare old phone and found it pretty unusable tbh. Very limited application choices and I hated the UI / app management work flow.
Also I hated that by default the terminal (and superuser privileges) are VERY locked down.
It’s possible I just didn’t know what I was doing tho ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, I’ve put Ubuntu Touch on a Pixel 3a and had a pretty similar experience unfortunately. I see potential, but it’s just not usable yet (for me at least).
Dang, I haven’t ever tried it. I was hoping for more configurability.
It would end up getting ignored or quickly devolve into the same shit as the others. 😞
Fuck, if Microsoft couldn’t do it, then there’s not much hope for anyone else.
There was so much competition in the early days of smartphones, its sad we ended up, the whole of humanity with two choices. Meego a collab between Intel and Nokia was really unique and a good model for social media and communications. Windows Phone was good purely to have another major competitor, but the interface was way ahead of Android and iOS for providing a better mobile experience.
RIM Blackberry, Nokia, Palm, all had a red hot go. Amazon tried recently and failed, they look like they’ll give it another shot with their new OS.
Yeah its just sad
Why not Android?
degoogling intensifies
Graphene OS might interest you.
I’m not going to criticize the project, because it’s good. But, to me, using anything that gives Google an edge in controlling the direction of technology is bad. So, no Chromium products and no Android.
I despise Google, and I agree with chromium, but when the only other alternative is using the proprietary walled garden that is iOS, I’ll take degoogled Android everyday.
What can android do that you actually do that iOS cannot?
For starters, you can degoogle Android, you can’t deapple iOS.
You can replace the manufacturer android with a clean, free software and secure Android ROM, like GrapheneOS. iOS is a black box, fully proprietary and controlled by Apple.
You can install apps from third parties on Android, like F-Droid. On iOS every app must be approved by Apple.
You can’t use an iPhone without an Apple account, you can use Android without a Google account.
Android has multiple profiles support, which comes handy for completely isolating apps from the rest of your phone.
There’s much, much more. That’s just what came to my mind right now.
Personally, I like using the terminal on my phone, and the only terminal I found for iOS is extremely slow because its emulating linux.
For a regular user… basically nothing.
I quit google products and services a decade ago, so I was “relegated” to iOS, which… does basically the same exact fucking thing but better in every way. It’s spendy though. I also like their privacy stance, which is “we cost a lot but we’re not selling all of your data to advertisers”
I have not found a single thing I can’t do on iOS that I COULD on Android.
People spout WaLLeD GaRdEn and what I read is “privacy” and I’m in
If you do that too much you’ll go blind.
I miss WebOS as a mobile OS and I can’t bear to see what LG has done do it.
Wait… was this ever good? I hate it so much on my TV.
I found it to be a very elegant OS, paired with a very elegant form factor in the Palm Pre. This was over 10 years ago, before Android had cemented its place, but WebOS was a bit ahead of its time, or at least out of sync with the time it was introduced. But it was a slick, intuitive OS that influenced the UX we take for granted today. I believe it was the first to have card-based task management. That satisfying “flick” to close an app was first seen on the Palm Pre.
If the palm pre had better build quality and wasnt tied down to sprint in the US I sometimes wonder how things would have played out. It was a better OS than android(especially since it was competing with the g1).
Yeah, I remember some noise around that, which is probably why they made the Pixi with a lot fewer moving parts after that. For what it’s worth, my Pre stood up great and was still in good shape when I upgraded away from it.
Try Murena on fairphone!
Murena uses /e/OS, which is still Android though.
It’s less about the hardware and more about the software. I would love to use a fairphone
And I give it a 0/10 on having a 3.5mm connector
If they gave us a second usb-c port instead I wouldn’t complain so much. So dumb that I have to choose between charging and audio
There is an adapter, buttt yeah I would really miss being able to just plug in a pair of headphones.
Is that really that much of an issue in the age of USB-C?
Yes, the 3.5mm jack is more durable than USB-C (since it is rotationally symmetric twisting doesn’t apply force to the connector), it maintains compatibility with billions of audio devices and doesn’t block your charging port if you use it.
Begs the question why aren’t charging jacks designed like audio jacks?
If you wanted them just for charging it would be fine. Barrel jacks are still pretty ubiquitous.
If you want them to also be data they get less great. They make 3.5mm/etc jacks with 3 “pins” and I assume more. But every time you’re inserting/removing the cable it’s rubbing past the insulators separating the contacts. Their failure per plug/unplug is higher than something like USB-C where the 24 contacts are being pushed together instead of brushing past each other. It would suck if you put in your USB-barrel and one of the contacts broke/bent.
Typical stereo headphones have 3 pins. Left, right, common ground. Tip, ring, and sleeve (not sure if the conductor order).
4-conductors used to be common for portable camcorders and early digital cameras. They’d put our composite a/v (extra conductor for video/yellow, still a shared ground). Tip, R1, R2, sleeve.
I’ve seen USB 2.0 (or perhaps 1.x) done over a 4-pin 3.5. And I’ve seen RS232 over 3.5 a number of times too (used to be common in ham radio in the 90s/early naughts).
The video ones are what I was thinking of. Fair enough that I forgot to count ground.
It’s actually a bit crazy - and very impressive - that the cable I use to tickle-charge my phone at 15W could also be used to connect four 4K screens, an external GPU, multiple 10GBe network adapters all while providing well over 200W of power… if my phone supported and of that, that is.
That’s just the USB-C standard, to get 200W and 4k video you need the fancy shielded high-gauge cables.
Well for only 4k, a relatively normal USB-C cable is enough, the fancy cables are for 20 and 40 Gbit/s which is only needed if you gl crazy with your FPS | Hz (more than 60Hz | FPS
There are plenty of products out there that use TS style audio plugs (more 2.5mm in my experience than 3.5mm) for DC power for portable devices. When you get to data transfer requirements, the higher pin counts of current connectors wouldn’t be space efficient.
See, you just described a thing and made a statement, but I don’t buy that one bit. I’ve broken several 3.5mm plugs but never once a USB-C.
I’m on the side of 3.5mm in phones, but there’s a reason XLR and 1/4" are the industry standards for audio.
I’m the opposite. I’ve broken several USB-C connectors, and not one 3.5mm
XLRs on phones? I can get behind that.
They could just make magnetic connectors with a shallow socket. But those would last longer and you wouldn’t need to keep buying new stuff.
CC: @Petter1@lemm.ee
I love the CC. Makes this conversation feel more formal.
Yes, it does impart a sense of gravity to otherwise mundane chatter. The only thing missing is letterhead with a monogram.
For some reason I don’t yet understand, my fediverse server inserts the CC in some replies and I forgot to catch it. I haven’t had time to analyze the rooster’s guts yet.
too many bits of magnetic gunk collect on those for my liking. Not as much of an issue on laptops, but with a phone carried in a pocket all day it quickly became an issue for me
Idk of any phone that had them built in, I just used one of those magnetic usb adapters you find on amazon
I’m sorry what? The 3.5mm is better because it’s rotational symmetrical?
Thats a minor win. You rarely really need that rotation capability, and what little you need can be made up with thinner cables (which is easier with a digital signal and DACs in the headphone, which can’t be done compatibly with 3.5mm and people are dumb) The you also have to sacrifice connection friction to gain rotation, and that has tradeoffs, especially when that friction is caused by a spring-loaded conductor (which also means more friction likely means fewer insertion cycles before friction starts dropping off).
It also really sucks at strain relief without massive dookie springs or rubber butts…and the bigger the strain relief, the more subjective it is to perpendicular force, which is really easy to do on a 3.5mm diameter cylinder of gold-plated iron/tin alloy with the fulcrum also being at the base of the cylinder.
Other cool thing about what could be done with USB-C headphones. A lot of companies put lead weights full-sized headphones for balance or comfort (more weight makes it feel more secure). Good Modern drivers don’t need to be as heavy as they used to be. How bout instead of weights, they use lipos? Now your headphones can charge your phone (when in wired mode, hell, I’m talking about fictional mid/high-end cans, they could have Bluetooth and ANC while we’re at it since they have power), and your charger port point is essentially moot.
3.5 jack port is definitely not more durable than USB-C. If you have good headphones, the change that the 3.5 plug is gigantic in length and the cable thicc AF which causes a lot of stress in the plug due to very large leverage. Additionally, I prefer to use the DAC integrated in my headphones rather than using the low quality tiny DAC in my phone. And in digital, the cable thickness does not matter really.
Very few people are plugging their large headphones into their phones though. For a more reasonable pair of portable headphones or IEMs the size of the plug isn’t a problem.
But congratulations, you have hit on my biggest audio pet peeve! DACs matter very little these days. Anything talking about DACs and not the DAC/Amp stages is marketing BS. Even dirt cheap DAC chips will acoustically transparently convert the digital signal to analog in audio frequencies because it is so basic to do. DACs on their own are useless for audio anyway, what really matters in your audio signal is the amp circuitry after the DAC that applies gain to the signal to useful levels as the choices there do make an acoustic difference if the design is poor.
What makes you think the DAC/Amp in your headphones is going to be better than the one that is built into the SoC of your phone? I don’t think I’ve ever seen any measurements of headphone DAC/Amps.
I learned that from my father, who mostly listen to music from his phone using external headphone amp for his bayer dynamics studio headphones, or uses digital out (via Bluetooth) and let his other Bayern dynamics active headphones do the DAC. He is sure that he hears the difference, but of course that could all be in his head alone. I myself am not a hiFi enthusiast, I only find the tech behind it very interesting. (I listen to music using airPods and in my car using CarPlay, sorry iPhone user here, but thinking to migrate as soon as my iPhone X becomes unusable) But given my interest in tech, I appreciate the explanation, that cheap DAC chips are very good as well, these days.
I don’t get why you get so much downvotes, because it’s not as obvious as people make it out to be and there are plenty of adapters. So it’s a good question.
But yes. The 3.5mm jack had the thing companies say they are striving for: simplicity.
DACs are nice and everything but the phone can just decide to not connect properly. The DAC can decide it had enough of your phone. In either case you’d need to reconnect them. And that means unlocking your phone, because a secure phone will block streaming to ‘unknown’ USB-C devices, unless it’s unlocked during the negotiation phase. And if your connectors have become wonky for whatever reason: Well, no music for you.
And then there’s the issue where you have to have them at hand when you need them. In your car, on your person, while at work.
3.5mm is great because it actually “just works”. One of the few things that can claim such thing.
I recently bought a phone that lacked a 3.5mm jack, so I bought a splitter with a USBC charging port and a headphone jack. The problem I encountered was that the splitter reported to the phone that headphones were connected even if they were not. I was used to unplugging the headphones and have playback automatically pause, and resume when the headphones were put back in. With the splitter I was no longer able to do that. I don’t know if I bought a cheap ass splitter or if that’s the normal behavior for these things.
This is not the normal behavior, but I’d consider the adapter part of you headphone cable and just leave it on there. If you want to unplug, just unplug the headphones (including adapter) from the phone?
That means the charging cable also needs to be unplugged if I want to step away. Thanks for the info about it not being normal, I guess I just got a POS splitter.
Ah, so thats what you meant by splitter. Might I suggest, there are some very cheap battery powered Bluetooth receivers. Those might be a good solution for you, in case you hadn’t considered something like that.
Yes, that’s actually exactly what I ended up buying. It’s got a pause/play button, so I hit that and take the whole thing with me.
Negotiation is a thing for sure. It is possible, though I haven’t ever seen it implemented, that digital audio over USB-C or bluetooth can be blocked by DRM. It would seem business suicide to do something like limiting audio output to certain audio products but I wouldn’t put it past any short term minded profit seeking enterprise.
Yes, I should be able to play music, AND charge the phone without a 9 wire adapter like those universal charger plugs from 10 years ago. Wild concept. I wonder when phone tech will be able to support such a thing
I think phones should have 2 USB-C ports
Only if I can charge 2x as fast!! 😉
There is one that offers this, it has to batteries as well.
Live by the wire, die by the wire(with a 3.5mm plug/jack of course)
This and most phones literally let you do what you’re saying right now.
Yes, it is.
OK
Yes, it’s fucking ridiculous! My cans are now either useless or cumbersome and everything else sounds awful! It’s like you people who just want some noise have never even heard decent audio!
I’ve got the Bose QC 45 headphones which can do both Bluetooth and 3.5 mm. The audio quality is the same between the two delivery methods. The only difference I’ve noticed is an occasional video/audio synching issue with Bluetooth which quickly corrects itself and is usually only an issue with older devices. It’s my understanding that this and the audio lag issue have been solved recently in newer devices.
I personally think Bluetooth is a shit standard that has slowly been fixed over the years, but it’s pretty much 100% there at this point
The real question I have is: is a decent DAC that hard to find? I bought a shit one because it’s only a back-up option for me, but I can’t imagine the good ones are scarce.
Tell it to the phone companies. A DAC and amp should be part of my phone.
Bose is shit.
No, the DAC used should be one that the headphones are designed for, so using integrated DAC of the Headphones should lead to best results just using a high end external DAC would be better.
Lol, your phone has not a good enough DAC that this would be hearable ä, but you do you
my issue right now is that i use one of those charging + 3.5mm splitters in the car, but when they’re both connected there’s a loud ass buzz. a 3.5mm ground loop isolator works but made bass sound terrible. i’m probably gonna get an old phone just for music in the car 🤦🏽♂️
Even if they gave us a second usb-c port instead of a 3.5mm jack I’d be fine with that, don’t make me choose between charging and decent audio
Just get a new car pleb.
Honestly Bluetooth in a car has been a must for me for like 10 years now. And having experienced CarPlay, that’s def next (especially for cars that support wireless and have a Qi spot. Thats practically magic)
i like my car :( and i’m paranoid about features in new cars. i can hear a noticeable difference in quality with bluetooth vs wired too. never been a fan
regardless, cars that people primarily use 3.5mm for aren’t going away too soon!
You should do what I did and just fuck up your ears with loud car stereos in your teenage years. Now I can’t tell a damn bit of difference.
honestly, not a bad idea. i’ve already got the tinnitus but i need to step it up
CarPlay transmits audio over wifi
oh huh, good to know. if android auto doesn’t already too, hopefully it will by the time my arm is twisted into getting a new car
You can retrofit a head unit or a screen to an older car. It works really well and gives so many more years to an older vehicle.
Look for “CarPlay screen” on amazon
I upgraded my car without Bluetooth using a carPlay ready touchscreen auto radio to replace the old thing that was mounted in the DIN drawer thingy
The car doesn’t have Bluetooth connection?
nah, it’s an 08
deleted by creator
In car, I can recommend using android in the car using the touchscreen of the car. There you can manage audio as well as charging the phone. One cable to rule them all.
No way i’m carrying a dongle
New headphones come with lightning and USB C cable these days
I ain’t buying new ones either
See it positive: you don’t have to choose from many phones if you that much want a headphone jack 😄
Attach the dongle to your wired headset.
Give it a year or two and most headphones will come with USB-C plugs. You’ll have to adapt back to the antiquated 3.5mm.
As it’s now, most things that you would plug a pair of headphones into (or their current-generation equivalent) has USB-C (or USB-A), aside from home theater/pro audio equipment
High end ones will even have their own DACs and amps, and you’ll regret ever missing 3.5mm
Get over it, gramps 🤣
As well as a 5.25" floppy disc drive and betamax, you call that a phone?!? No thank you, I’ll stick with my x-phone https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nezImUP0w
People complaining about 3.5mm jacks remind of the people who complained about how the iMac G3 didn’t have a 3.5" floppy drive. At first yeah it was weird to leave it out, but it’s been 9 years since the first smartphone launched without a 3.5mm jack (the OPPO R5 in 2014).
If you want ancient tech then your options will be limited.
Ancient tech? Looks at literally every laptop and desktop sold.
Headphone jack removal is anti-consumer and any device without one is missing a key component. Why would I buy a device missing a key component?
Plus you can find wired headphones EVERYWHERE. Walk into any gas station and pick up replacements for $10. Sure they may not be the best quality, but they work. Also, no charging, just plug them into your device. Also, no setup, just plug it in.
Ancient tech? Looks at literally every laptop and desktop sold.
I can’t tell you if any of my laptops have a 3.5mm jack. If they do, I’d rather have another USB-C port instead. And arguing that just because it’s still used in desktop computers, then it can’t be ancient, I’d like to draw your attention toward the rs232 port that still isn’t phased out entirely.
Why would I buy a device missing a key component
In case I missed it, would you like to point out where exactly you’re being forced to buy a specific phone?
I happen to be writing this on an android 13 phone with a 3.5mm jack (I had to check, but it’s there), it’s not like you can’t get a phone with the connector.
i actually find this argument flawed. Bluetooth is great but does not provide feature parity. correct me if I’m wrong but aptX was supposed to be lossless audio, but it has been shown that it has compression artifacts. I’ll be happy with Bluetooth only if we can have absolutely lossless audio
If you can tell the difference between well-compressed, high bitrate audio and lossless audio played on the same equipment, then you’re in the minority. However it’s pretty easy to accidentally end up with a combo of phone / app / app settings / headphones that results in a suboptimal listening experience, either because you’re using a bad codec (like SBC on any device or AAC on many Android phones) or because your music is being compressed twice. You can avoid the latter issue by streaming uncompressed music or by using a combo that doesn’t recompress your music (like Apple Music -> iPhone -> Airpods Pro/Max).
It’s also possible that the reason Bluetooth headphones sound worse isn’t because of losing information but because the headphones just aren’t as good as your wired ones. If you get a portable Bluetooth DAC like the Qudelix 5k, you can connect it to your phone and connect your wired headphones to it.
You don’t have to be happy with Bluetooth. You can buy a USB-C DAC for like $10. Apple’s “USB C to 3.5mm Headphone Jack Adapter” is 9 USD direct from Apple and it tested extremely well. You can use it on any modern phone or on your laptop or tablet, too. (You can also use the Qudelix 5k this way.)
If that adapter isn’t good enough (maybe it doesn’t output enough power for your high impedance headphones), then most phone’s built-in DACs + headphone adapters would have the same problem. Basically only Sony and LG (RIP) phones ever had especially good onboard DACs and amps, and even with them it would often make more sense to get a dedicated portable setup.
For anyone who is happy with Bluetooth, though, they don’t have to worry about all this and they get to reap the advantages of the headphone jack’s removal. The extra space can be used for more battery, if nothing else, and it’s easier to prevent dust/water ingress when you eliminate the headphone jack.
Also, I think you’re thinking of LDAC (by Sony), not aptX (by Qualcomm). LDAC is not lossless, either, but it’s much higher bitrate than anything other than the very recently introduced aptX Lossless, which - under ideal conditions - features lossless compression.
Wired headphones don’t have to incorporate their own DACs, which means any budget wired set will be better than wireless one of the same price - everything can go into the actual analog part of the equation.
The adapter is extremely inconvenient, it’s a small dongle that is easy to lose and you can’t even charge your phone and listen to music at the same time, which I personally do very regularly. Besides, making everything go through one port increases wear and tear and reduces reliability of the device.
3,5mm jack doesn’t take any significant amount of space and the value of extra teeny tiny piece of battery is ridiculously low. This has always felt like a bullshit excuse to me.
Just my 2 cents.
So, the smaller version of the connector that studios use to this day is ancient, huh?
pfft musicians what the hell do they know about music
NOTHING
My electrician says that woodworking doesn’t need ancient tools like hammers.
Actually it’s even older. And it’s also not used in a phone.
The argument that 3.5mm jacks are somehow superior to a digital stream is so laughably flawed. The 3.5mm jack is a shit connector, always has been. It got its success from being paired with the original walkman, not exactly hifi equipment. The durability of the jack is wanting and a few specks of dust in the socket and you’re getting static when you move about.
I don’t know how many sockets I’ve had to replace over time because a male jack broke off in the socket. It’s one thing that the jack is so thin that it can break in your pocket. But when manufacturers then mount sockets, that doesn’t allow you to push the broken part out, and also uses some weird one-hung-low socket with a weird footprint that you can’t source with less than a 5k MOQ, and that is only after searching for an hour. Which then leaves you having to do all sorts of weird cowboy tricks in order to have a working sound output… Then you will get to my level of annoyance with the 3.5mm jack.
All those problems are not really a thing with 6.3mm jacks, but, by all means, keep believing that 3.5mm is superior because professionals use something that looks like it, and disregard everything else.
This is not a well thought out response.
The things you mention had workable replacements and/or were the loser in a standards war. Bluetooth headphones have weaker audio, battery limitations on the headphones and the streaming device and the argument for removing them is just not justified outside of forced path to profits for proprietary headphone sales. Also, there are USB-c headphone options and problems are two fold - clunky, costly adapters and increased stress on the phone’s main charging port.
It’s not even close to ancient and you’re argument is extremely weak.
You’re basically making the exact same Betamax vs VHS argument. The only different is Apple is the Porn industry embracing Bluetooth in favor of wired products.
Aux vs Bluetooth is not analogous to Betamax/VHS. It’s more like WiFi and ethernet. WiFi can replace ethernet most of the time, but there are clear benefits to wired connections.
How is this not technically also the same? WiFi can replace Ethernet all of the time with degraded connectivity outside of super secure offerings. The same argument is made for production quality vs home release quality.
Bluetooth headphones have weaker audio
Please define “weaker”.
forced path to profits for proprietary headphone sales
What are you talking about? How are you forced to buy some specific BT headphones for your phone?
And the argument about USB-C headphones being clunky? Sure, it may not be optimal, but you could always just buy a phone with a jack or give in and switch to BT.
Ethernet must be ancient tech to you.
In an end-user device? Yes, it’s irrelevant. Use wifi unless you have a special usecase.
Wow, so gaming with reliable latency is a special usecase? Wi-Fi is awesome for convenience but it can never be better than wired because of physics.
so gaming with reliable latency is a special usecase
Yes, yes it is. Most people couldn’t care less, they just want convenience.
What are the physics you’re talking about?
Wi-Fi is a shared medium where airtime is split amongst multiple clients on a radio spectrum that is open for all the public to use… Wired gives each device dedicated bandwidth with no interference. Wireless gets better and better, but it can never, and will never, be faster than a dedicated cable.
None of that are physical limitations, it’s purely implementational. Legacy ethernet was half-duplex as well, before switching and dedicated pairs for tx/rx became the norm. Handling of the shared medium is done with CSMA-CA and not -CD, which was used for ethernet, so at least we learned something.
Copper is also susceptible to interference, both RFI and EMI. Sure you can mitigate the effect by shielding and twisting the wire pairs with different amounts of twists pr length. But in the end, copper is also susceptible to interference.
I’m not an RF engineer, and I don’t have an idea of what can be done to mitigate noise in wifi even further. But claiming that it’s an inherent physical limitation, that can’t be mitigated, that’s just defeatism. It’s about the implementation, not physical constraints.
The difference here is that 3,5mm jacks are not obsolete.
Nobody besides a few grumpy folks opposed the switch from microUSB to Type-C, for example, because we got something better instead.
Floppy drives got obsolete, because again, we got something better - disks! And then flash drives! Always a better, more convenient and functional option.
3,5 mm jack, however, is still completely relevant and is not replaced by anything. It is the only widely adopted consumer-grade standard for analog wired audio. Wireless audio has objective drawbacks: one more battery to control, lower reliability, poorer sound quality (not a big issue with most phones since their DACs are normally not audiophile-grade anyway, but still), higher price, pairing issues, and many more. And USB-C to 3,5mm dongles are obviously terrible: they can get lost, they don’t allow you to listen to music while charging your phone/transferring files, and they are yet another component to manage.
Essentially, wireless audio has been pushed down our throats, and we do not appreciate that. For me, not having a 3,5mm jack is one of the criterions that immediately kill any desire to buy that phone. It will just be a massive pain in the ass for me, and I don’t want that.
agree, and not just for 3,5mm jacks. If there is a way to do it with a cable, i will choose the cable instead of a wireless solution. The only time I didn’t was with a wireless mouse that, after a while, I just kept on the cable anyway. They are so very convenient, especially the 3,5mm jack.
This is just proof smartphones are toys and not real tools.
They do everything poorly. iPhone video and photo looks like garbage compared to a real camera and now you can’t even play music without overly compressed bluetooth. This is like wanting a flip phone filter for your camera. It’s asinine and backward and you defend it like a lemming because HURR FLOPPY DISK SMALL. Apples and oranges. A universal connector capable of delivering a strong signal is not the same as a low capacity storage format.
But please do go on about how great your tracking device is
you do know that you could have made your point in a nicer manner, yes? why would we want to bring the strenuous tones of hollow outrage from reddit to here?
we are all better than that, even the big danish guys.
He didn’t even make a point. That was all insult and comparisons that don’t compare.
I’m sorry, but I had to say something. I’m so tired of non-technical people moaning about the out phasing of the 3.5mm jack, and especially the arguments about audio quality and vendor lock in that has been raised in this thread. I had to make sure that it was understood, that the view is not unopposed.
Could I have done it more diplomatically? Maybe, but I also wanted to drive my point home in as short a post as possible.
I asked chatgpt to help out rewriting my comment, but with your criticism in mind. It came up with:
While 3.5mm jacks may seem like a staple, it’s worth noting that technology evolves. Much like the transition from 3.5" floppy drives, change takes time to be widely accepted. The omission of the jack in smartphones isn’t about dismissing tradition but adapting to newer, more versatile alternatives. It’s been nearly a decade since the OPPO R5, and as technology progresses, embracing these changes can lead to a broader range of innovative features.
I don’t want to bore people to death, but I can also see now how perhaps I could have attacked the technology instead of the people.
We are better than our old /u/ on reddit, and we must strive to keep it that way. Competing with reddit on toxicity, will be a fight we’ll never be able to win.
Thank you for calling me out on my BS, and helping us all to keep the fediverse a better place.
Being an electronic engineer and a programmer I would categorize myself as a “technical person”. I am also a person that prefers devices that are as reliable an repairable as possible. A headphone without a battery and with a replaceable cable can last you literally decades. A TWS one, will not.
To add to that, using a dongle means a separate device that can break (and is most likely not repairable), that isn’t necessarily compatible with anything you plug it in to, that has a dac (which is redundant since your phone could use the internal one if you had a 3.5mm connector) and that will cause extra battery drain (regardless of how much more, it’s more than 0).
There are literally 0 benefits to removing the headphone jack. Several people have even shown that devices that “don’t have enough space” for it can be modded to add the 3.5mm jack and you don’t even lose any functionality.
Removing the headphone jack is a step backwards.
AND it’s on purpose. It’s to make you switch from your good headphones that work with any analog output to shit that requires their specifications and can be remotely fucked with so you gotta keep buying.
AND it’s on purpose. It’s to make you switch from your good headphones that work with any analog output to shit that requires their specifications and can be remotely fucked with so you gotta keep buying.
[Citation needed]
When you punch me in the nose, I don’t need proof of your intentions.
My own background is in embedded electronics too. Whether there is a benefit in removing the jack or not has not been part of my arguments.
Some people will say that the jack needs to go for waterproofing, but I distinctly remember owning a Sony Xperia M4 which had both a jack and an IP68 rating.
I’m also not saying that your arguments aren’t valid, I just value different aspects… Except for the part about an external DAC being redundant. An external DAC, with RCA or XLR connectors, some proper cable can potentially give you a better result than the internal DAC and the 3.5mm jack. Emphasis on the “potential” part.
I haven’t used wired headphones on a regular basis, since that Xperia in 2015ish, and I don’t miss untangling the wires, or fixing a broken socket where the solder is cracked, the pins are broken inside the plastic housing of the socket, or clearing a socket of a broken male jack.
IMO the 3.5mm jack is a poor connector. It breaks too easily, dust in the socket leads to static and to be quite honest if I can tell a difference in sound quality, it’s my BT headphones that comes out on top.
As long as there’s a demand for 3.5mm jacks in phones they’ll still be marketed. But if people could stop pointing out that another overpriced smartphone lacks the jack, it would just be swell. Just buy a more modestly priced phone instead of forking over +700€ for a frigging phone.
I currently have a Sony Xperia 5V. It has an IP68 rating, it’s basically a flagship phone and it has a headphone jack. Manufacturers don’t include the jack because they don’t want to but it’s 100% possible.
An external DAC, with RCA or XLR connectors, some proper cable can potentially give you a better result than the internal DAC and the 3.5mm jack.
Sorry, but that bit about the external dac is pretty dumb. We’re talking about using a mobile phone and you’re talking xlr and rca? Really?
I don’t miss untangling the wires,
Maybe use a case? I usually have a small roud case for my IEMs that barely takes up space. You’re already carrying a case for tws so I don’t see why it would be a problem.
or fixing a broken socket where the solder is cracked,
At least you can fix it. If the battery on a wireless IEM dies, 9 times out of 10 you can’t fix it and need to get a new one.
the pins are broken inside the plastic housing of the socket,
Maybe don’t use shitty jacks?
or clearing a socket of a broken male jack.
Don’t know how or where you use your phone but that literally never happened to me. Honestly, none of the issues you mentioned have been a problem for me. Maybe take better care of your stuff?
And regarding people pointing out the lack of a basic feature. Yeah, no. If a company makes shitty products, I’ll keep pointing it out. Also, there are fewer and fewer phones with a headphone jack every year. Cheap and expensive. So no, price has nothing to dp with this.
Sorry, but that bit about the external dac is pretty dumb. We’re talking about using a mobile phone and you’re talking xlr and rca? Really?
mama always stupid is as stupid does
I’ve read at least once in this thread an argument, that 3.5mm jack is superior to BT or USB-C, on account of the audio quality. If you’re using your phone for playback in a setup where you can tell the difference, then an external DAC, with proper connectors, is warranted.
Maybe use a case? I usually have a small roud case for my IEMs that barely takes up space.
How about wireless instead? They can be more discreet, and you don’t always have to care about stowing then away. There’s a bit of a difference between rolling the wire(s) up or just plopping the individual TWS in a case, where orientation is handled by a magnet.
Maybe don’t use shitty jacks?
Nothing to do with the jack. I’m talking about the pins coming from the circular part of the socket and going to the PCB. I’ve seen them break inside the socket housing, where you can’t get to them. Leaving you with the options of either
- sourcing a drop in replacement socket, which is time consuming and some of the time futile, or
- plugging in some headphones, fire up the device and start playing some sound, then manipulate the socket while listening to the audio and when you get both left and right working, then securing the position with ad much epoxy as you can get away with. Elsewhere in this thread I’ve mentioned cowboy ways of electronics repair, this is some of what I meant.
If you want to avoid this issue, then you need to evaluate the socket in the device as part of your purchasing considerations. But most stores don’t like it when you take their stuff apart. Instruct your users (in my case friends and family) to be really careful OR just use wireless.
Don’t know how or where you use your phone but that literally never happened to me. Honestly, none of the issues you mentioned have been a problem for me. Maybe take better care of your stuff?
Or, and bear with me here, I’ll keep using my devices how I want, as I’ve found a perfectly good strategy for not breaking a 3.5mm male jack in the socket? Most of the times I have had to deal with this issue in this millennium, I haven’t even been the culprit.
Yeah, no. If a company makes shitty products, I’ll keep pointing it out.
And I’ll keep telling you that nobody really cares, most of your arguments are moot, and your opinion is not that of the vast majority.
Also, there are fewer and fewer phones with a headphone jack every year.
I wonder how that could be /s
Cheap and expensive. So no, price has nothing to dp with this.
It started with flagships IIRC, sure it may have trickled down into other segments.
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Technology evolves?
You need an extra clump of stuff in your pocket that’s terribly unreliable now or your top shelf standard audio equipment now needs replaced by our branded earbuds that sound terrible. PROGRESS.
This isn’t progress. This is forced obsolescence. Literally everything about it is worse. I can put my phone in a plastic baggie when it’s raining, but I’m not carrying around an extra fucking DAC/amp everywhere. I just have to deal with crappy wireless earbuds.
your top shelf standard audio equipment now needs replaced by our branded earbuds
What company does this? I keep hearing the argument, but I have no clue who it is.
I haven’t found a phone my Jabra headsets couldn’t connect to. Only my ps4, but that is not really part of this discussion.
Thank you!
Much appreciated, unironically. All hail the fedi!
You know the kind of guy who writes nothing but bad things and troll comments, and then wonders why his life sucks? Well… that was me. Every time something good happened to me, something bad was always waiting around the corner. Karma. That’s when I realised I had to change. So, I switched from reddit and joined the fediverse. I’m just trying to be a better person. My name is
Earlbigdanishguy.We need to be better, reddit can go suck a donkey, but if we want this to be a viable alternative down the road, we need to be better. Calling each other out on bull shit behavior is warranted from time to time.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://m.piped.video/watch?v=9-nezImUP0w
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
The number of comment that says " I would buy one, but" is amazing !
What this company is doing is what every company should do, from laptop to tablet. As well as tractors. Dot being able to repair what you buy is fundamentally flawed!
If my FP4 dies in the next year, I will fix it. Because iFixit gave it 10/10.
As soon as my FP 3 dies they will hopefully have a new phone with a headphone jack. In 10 years or so.
Don’t forget to let them know that at the various consumer surveys they send regularly. But I wouldn’t hold my breath…
Honestly I’d probably buy a phone without a camera before I’d buy a phone without a headphone jack.
I was sold on the idea of a fairphone but that’s a dealbreaker to me. I very briefly owned a phone without a headphone jack (borrowed from a friend while my current one was in repair), having to think of that stupid adapter all the time was hell.
Can’t you leave the adapter on the heatphone cable?
I have 2 main problems with that:
- My headphone cable is long and sometimes it gets tangled in all sorts of places. The adapters are small and flimsy, if I leave them on the cable I assume they’ll break soon. I have no problems with a broken headphone cable as it is an easy and cheap fix. I don’t think the adapters are seriously fixable tho.
- Everything else uses a headphone jack everywhere. I have yet to see a use for USB-C to audio jack anywhere else. Which makes sense as USB is digital and audio is analog. I assume many people have no use for headphones outside of their phones, I am not one of those people.
Yeah, that’s what I really don’t get about all the people in this thread. No matter how many headphones you have, the adapter is like 10$ at most. Just get as many as you need to always have one where you need it
I don’t intend on turning this into some sort of fight but to me your comment has big
“I don’t see the problem why can’t other people just have enough money”
vibes (Also I checked and an adapter costs me 12$ on Amazon). I don’t think you intended it this way, so I’ll shut up now.
As to my actual answer:
- Leaving it on headphones is not an option to me (I explained it above)
- Buying one for every jacket might work, but what do I do in summer?
- Please correct me on this but afaik it’s not standardized
- USB output is usually digital, while headphone obviously require an analog signal. I assume the vendors just use certain pins in the USB jack for transmitting the analog signal while keeping the rest grounded.
- I know for certain that Samsung adapters don’t work on OnePlus phones for example.
I could go on, but there’s honestly no point. We’re different people with different uses for our phones/headphones. I won’t buy a phone without a headphone jack as long as I still have wired headphones.
Adapters are literally <5 USD including shipping on AliExpress. At that point it’s not about the price if you’re buying a phone anyways, because the cheap phones haven’t abandoned the aux jack.
Also the digital usb adapters should work on any phone (and computer), unlike the “dumb” ones that trigger the DAC inside the phone (if there is one).
I would love one of it wasn’t so big. I’m sick of big phones.
This. I just ordered an S23, just because it’s pretty much the smallest phone you can get (apart from the zenfone, which has a worse update policy).
Got a Zenphone 9 because I don’t really care about wireless charging. The hardware is great, but the software has it’s problems sometimes, like some missing QoL features. On the upside: Not nearly as much bloatware as other phones, especially Samsung ones.
To me I’d still say the ZenFone isn’t a small phone. Not only is it bigger than my current phone (pixel 3) its also bigger than some phones in the 2010s that were lauded for their large screens. We literally have no mainstream small phones, what we call small now are just smaller than the ginormous ones that have been normalised.
Samsung basically has a duplicate app installed for each stock Google app. And I think short of disabling it via adb, there is no option. But Samsung has really turned around and has a relatively good update policy in place. If not the Pixel, then Samsung is okay for me. I had love to have the Fairphone but it seems like they sell in limited markets only worldwide.
I never buy phones without bootloader unlocking capability for that reason
I’m still using a S10e, seriously considering buying another - it still suits my needs.
Yeah, I’m writing this on an s10e but the battery really isn’t that good anymore and the lack of security updates doesn’t feel good either. The current s series phones are roughly the same size as the e though, so I hope it’ll be okay.
That said, even the e is a bit too large for my taste. The top left corner is pretty much out of reach without adjusting your grip, so about half an inch less of screen would be preferable imho. Samsung’s one handed mode is much better than the android default though, which kind of makes up for it - and there’s just nothing smaller available.
Agreed, I happened to just make this mockup chronicling my journey through screen sizes. I loved the HTC One m7, the pixel 2 despite being a bit larger was still comfortable because it still has a “chin” at the bottom. I thought going to the pixel 5 would be fine and I chose it because it’s within ~1mm of the same body dimensions, but I forgot to account for the screen going all the way to the top/bottom - trying to press the back button at the bottom of the screen with 1 hand is so much more of a stretch and it sometimes makes my hand sore. Given that I’ve had the P5 for a while and my hand still hasn’t adjusted I just can’t go to a bigger phone, especially since the P5’s
increased height over the 2lower screen bottom compared to the P2 makes it want to flip backwards out of my hand when I’m trying to reach down to the back button. At a minimum I need my next phone to be same or smaller than the P5.(Comparison: https://i.imgur.com/gAc306o.png )
That said, I get that FP wants to make a repairable phone that appeals to the masses, and it might hurt that mission to cater to a specific crowd instead of competing with the veritable hand-tablets that other companies are producing. I just hope that they grow large enough to be able to make a “Luddite” version though with a non-cramp-inducing size and a headphone jack. I don’t care either way about headphone jacks but I feel like there’s a lot of overlap between the crowds that want smaller phones and people who want headphone jacks.
Agree, I want something that fits in my pocket and that I don’t have to perform hand gymnastics to use.
I would buy one in a heartbeat if it was smaller… My S22 barely fits in my pants pocket, and barely usable with one hand.
Still waiting for compact phones to return…RIP sony xperia
Same. I got a fairphone 4 after my beloved one plus X which was the perfect size… I just dont use a big part of my screen
The OnePlus X is such a beautiful phone. Sadly there’s no ROM left that’s being maintained.
Ye, latest rom i found back then was a lineageos rom that was android 11, june 2022 release iirc ( or 2021? ). It was awesome and worked great. Alas, after 8 years it is now my spare phone incase of issues :)
S10e forever.
People just don’t seem to buy compact phones. The IPhone mini was a flop.
My daughter really loves my old S10e. Apart from the dwindling battery life, it’s still an awesome phone, capable of taking beautiful photos.
Yeah it’s a shame the processor also wasn’t that power efficient yet. The new Snapdragon Gen2 would bring insane battery life to small phones.
I laughed when I saw the size of it. It’s the same size as the S23 ultra…
I have an S21 Ultra, so the size doesn’t bother me too much. But the Fair phone is objectively a worse device on every level. I want something S23 nonplus non ultra sized if I’m going for an average long lasting daily phone.
The Zenfone line is your best bet for a compact phone today. I switched from the LG V60 to the Zenfone 10 when it came out and it’s no contest. I loved my V60 but its laughably massive to me now
RIP sony xperia? I just got a Sony Xperia 5 V and it’s a great phone. Maybe a bit tall but the width makes it very comfortable to use with one hand.
I want the headphone jack back.
I would buy one if they shipped globally and it was about 100-150€ cheaper. The specs are not worth 700€. I would also need official GrapheneOS support as well.
The specs are not worth 700€
That’s what those specs are worth if everyone who’s part of it gets compensated for their work appropriately.
Imagine the price of a Galaxy S23 if Samsung actually was fair to everyone involved.
There’s no GrapheneOS support for it, but CalyxOS is going to support it.
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It wasn’t free. You paid for it
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Someone gifted you a phone and you are not paying them money at all?
They’re probably talking about mommy and daddy that got them the phone. Which is why they’re responding like a 5 year old.
That is no way to insult a five year old!
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Agree with the message but not with the tone. I buy used phones from eBay and they are awesome. Like $100 for a newish device.
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Yeah it’s just crazy watching you be ableist as if you have a point
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Since I can’t get the Fairphone in the US, I got a Pixel 7a for $350. It’s not as repairable as my ancient 3a, but if it lasts 7 years like the 3a, I’ll have gotten my money’s worth.
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this is great! i have a friend who needs a new phone and is ordering one, and i’m gonna get my hands on it to help him out and eventually flashing LineageOS on it if it comes out
i just wish they complied with the android stack security features so that it would be compatible with GrapheneOS. it would be the perfect phone
For real, we need more phones that are compatible with GrapheneOS. Going to Google for THE De-googled phone is nothing shy of extremely ironic and borderline hypocritical.
Most importantly - more such phones that are affordable. Even specifics like giant size aside, the only Pixel I can afford is the one that is either not supported or close to the end of support. Also they’re not even officially available here, which seems to be a common problem.
Can you ELI5 on the Android Stack Security compliance thing?
I would like to know about ASS, too.
NICE ASS
I really like the idea of these phones and I’d really buy one of my employer wasn’t providing me a phone and allowing me to use it for my private stuff.
Of course, it might be expensive for the hardware, but just look at the price of a non repairable and non ethical iPhone.
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Well I would buy the Murena version of the Fairphone. The one with /e/os installed. Apparently everything works on it, without google learning too much about you.
Sounds like a your country issue.
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Thanks for the advice, but I’ve already thought about it a lot and I see more advantages than inconveniences. But if course I agree with you about the risks involved.
I wouldn’t say the Fairphone 5 wins prizes for looks or functionality but it does show that it is entirely possible to make a phone with a replaceable battery and repairable components in a modern form factor. If they, a small boutique phone maker can do it, then there is absolutely no excuse that Apple, Samsung, Oppo etc. cannot do the same.
One failing of Fairphone is you cannot buy the mainboard (the core component) from their store. All the other components yes, but not the mainboard. The core is not just the CPU, flash but also some other things like microphone are on it. It would also be nice if people could order all the parts that make up a Fairphone 5 and assemble one entirely from scratch.
I’ve also read through their ethics / green reports in the past, and while it talks it up with “supply chain engagement” reports and so on, most of their components are still made to order by Chinese OEMs so how far does it go down the chain in reality.
I want a fucking headphone jack, thanks. Also 3 full size USB ports, a physical keyboard and a inch-thick battery, because fuck you.
Still no 3.5mm jack, still no dice for me.
